Early Childhood

» crunchymom76 - Children learn what they live..

I try to stay away from these issues because I have such strong opinions--especially since I'm an experience teacher who would never hit a student. Why would my own child deserve any less? I think it's sad that we live in a world where we teach children that "hitting is wrong" yet adults continue to hit them. Spank. Hit. Whatever you call it. It's the same thing.

I'm concerned that even in 2007 *any* parent would choose to hit their child. I have 15 years experience in daycare and school settings in addition to almost 5 years experience as a mom. I would never strike a child. Just like I would never strike an adult. I highly recommend http://www.nospank.net or http://neverhitachild.org for those who are skeptical. Also check out http://stoptherod.net/ for info about books that are out currently that advocate the whipping and hitting of infants when they cry. Yes, there are books that recommend this practice. Most people gasp at this but find that hitting a toddler is perfectly acceptable.

I hope there comes a day when people will finally decide that children are people too. I find it shocking that people get riled up about husbands hitting wives or vice versa but shrug their shoulders about children being hit.
I won't get into all the research against corporal punishment because it's self-explanatory. It simply isn't supported by research. Period. I'll end with this and hope you'll take a moment to read it:

Never Violence

a story told by Astrid Lindgren

[Author of Pippi Longstocking]

"Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence." In 1978, Astrid Lindgren received the German Book Trade Peace Prize for her literary contributions. In acceptance, she told the following story.

"When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor's wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child, she didn't believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking - the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, "Mama, I couldn't find a switch, but here's a rock that you can throw at me."

All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the child's point of view: that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it with a stone. And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind herself forever: never violence. And that is something I think everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery - one can raise children into violence."

I think that too often we fail to feel situations "from the child's point of view," and that failure leads us to teach our children other than what we think we're teaching them.

-- posted by crunchymom76

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» Brenda Lane - Children learn what they live..

In response to Children learn what they live.. posted by crunchymom76:

I believe that hitting - or as you have described - abuse - is completely 100% wrong. No excuses. Dead wrong. I have seen children in public who are clearly abused this way. There are no excuses for it.

However, I have worked with many many families who have a rule to never hit their children. However - and I say this cautiously lest anyone misinterpret me - I do believe that under SOME circumstances, there are occasions when physical discipline speaks louder to SOME children than just words as in the case I mentioned on the other discussion of my 2 yr old daughter running away from me defiantly into the street. Time-out or even a verbal scolding was not appropriate. She needed to know that there was zero tolerance for that type of behavior.

My husband and I did not have "rules" about discipline per se, but rather followed our God-given instincts in terms of parenting. We were both physically disciplined frequently as children. We did not feel that it was always the best way to handle the situation but that was the generation we grew up in.

Now what I am seeing in parenting is the complete opposite. Children are treated with kid gloves, if you will. Bad behavior is explained to them using adult language, but there are few if any consequences. Parents have become indulgent to the point that a child's self esteem is more important than teaching life lessons.

We need to find a middle ground between these two extremes. I am not saying that it is always going to be physical discipline, but with a very difficult, obstinant child who tests and tests and defies the rules in the home and is not honoring the parents, it may be.

My concern is that without a bit of fear of parents, authority, etc.. we are seeing exactly what we see now in schools all over the country. Kids who act up, treat the teacher like an equal and parents who defend their children at every turn. I saw a startling example of this with a teenager recently where there was not even a respect or fear of a police officer. I truly believe that comes from a lack of good discipline and consequences at home.

We can respect the rights of a child - yes, but the child needs rules, consistency, boundaries and consequences when the rules are broken.

Now I will get off my soap box.

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» Rachel Lister - Children learn what they live..

In response to Children learn what they live.. posted by crunchymom76:
If we use spanking as a method of disclipline we need to really think about what we are teaching our children. What is our purpose in disciplining? I believe that spanking always comes out of anger and showing a child that you are angry with them does not help them to correct their behavior. More often then not, spanking causes more behavioral problems.

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» Phoenixamaranth - Children learn what they live..

In response to Children learn what they live.. posted by brendapreg:

I would like to respond to your view of spanking because it is the common response and so far has been a deciding factor in the passing of legislation.
First, on the issue of respect I would like you to think about the last adult you viewed with respect and ask yourself why? Most often then not respect is lost due to a disagreement about values and beliefs. This is usually not even expressed between the two individuals but is an unspoken reaction to the other person's words and actions. It is also gained in the same manner.
Respect is something that must be earned. It is not easily given and when an attempt is made to force it, it presents itself as pseudo-respect: a false respect that is presented in an effort to avoid reproach or conflict. It is fear not respect. (just my 2 cents on respect since it is a common request of their children from pro-spanking parents. They want respect but they don't understand what constitutes true respect. In most families I have talked too, children can't fully understand respect until teens and twenties because it is based around values and beliefs.)
I understand your concern about children only being talked to about a situation or behavior that is undesirable. I would like to point out that vocalization alone may not lead a child to understand and grasp the reasoning behind why what they did was wrong or inappropriate. Parents must make a very strong effort to show the cause and effect consequences of a specific situation that has occurred. This is where creativity and research into alternative methods of discipline come into play. A parent must set up a response and consequence to behavior that expresses the relationship that the child does not understand. The situation requires teaching. A proper response that would offer the best qualities of teaching would be as close to the initial situation as possible. Spanking does not offer that relationship.
As for the story of your daughter, I would like to get into a little bit of logic. That situation is viewed as an immediate threat to the child's safety. If the child is within reach for a spanking then the child is within reach for prevention. If not within reach of a parent but within reach of something life threatening then a parent has made an error. Your daughter was 2 years old. First, extra care must be taken with toddlers because they are curious but unable to make safe decisions for themselves. Your daughter ran into the street because she could not understand and perceive the immediate threat to her life. If she cannot understand the immediate threat to her life then it stands to reason that she will not be able to understand why you spanked her for running into the street. Spanking her for a mistake that she could not understand does not make sense logically. It defeats the purpose of teaching.
I assume that your hope was that she would learn to obey in the future so your voice alone would stop her. Your hope rests on her understanding and fearing punishment for disobedience. If she is capable of understanding and fearing punishment for disobedience then she is capable of understanding and fearing other forms of punishment besides spanking. An alternative method could easily replace spanking. Loss of privilege or toy could be an option if they are followed with the same explanation that a lack of disobedience led to them. Any punishment without explanation of the reasons why is dangerous because the parent assumes the child knows and understands automatically.

One last note, kind of off topic, is that rules are subjective meaning they vary greatly from person to person, place to place, religion to religion, etc. Not all rules are "just" based on who you ask. Look at countries that have different value and belief systems. Some countries outlaw music. Some ban women from showing their faces. Some outlaw speaking against the view of the state. Blindly raising children to obey all authority and rules without being able to think and make their own choices can lead to bad situations like the 15 girl who was sexually assaulted by her boss at a McDonald's where she worked because her parents taught her to always do what an authority figure says. My point is people should be able to make their own decisions based off of logical reasoning and their own values and beliefs. As well as understand that their values and beliefs may clash with others.

-- posted by Phoenixamaranth

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